Rafale 4 EF2000 0

[JLZietler]

It's cultural-

Multi-national projects will always be weak on PR. The exception of F-35 is due to the US dominance of a project which in some ways is more international than Typhoon.

Britain is terrible at PR. 1st rule of advertising: never mention anything negative.

Harrier
HSA or BAe released a pamphlet called military misconceptions of the Harrier
in the 1970s; this amounted to reiterating criticisms of the project that prospective clients may have not already heard and countering the claims. It started an advertising claim from a defensive position- always a bad position.

The same mistaken technique of modesty has been revised by Eurofighter- ‘Typhoon is worse than the F-22 and a little better than the Rafale (except in air-to-ground)’ seems the general gist of their promotional efforts. In India are they pushing Typhoon as an ideal Viper killer (just look at the Singapore results), one which offers better potential upgrades than rivals, the greatest technology transparency and compatibility with the best engine choice for Tejas (it fits in the bloody thing, more than can be said for the 414!) ? Yes, but so gently and with such little political clout that they are far from being able to guarantee a sale?

Eurofighter must stick on AESA/AESMA, must accelerate A2G capabilities and must be aggressive with celebrating Typhoon’s strengths. If not it will end up like the Tornado or Jaguar before it, with limited export success. I’d even go as far as suggesting an immediate TVC integration programme and DASS replacement using F-35 era technology.

Just look at Boeing- a company with excellent PR skills. They call the Silent eagle a ‘stealth’ aircraft, despite this claim being entirely fatuous. US aircraft manufacturers are masters of spin and doublethink, European multi-nationals are masters of apology and bluster.

LM claim super-maneuverability is essential for the F-22, at the same time it claims F-35 does not need great agility as modern air combat is all about BVR and situational awareness. Hold on, you might say, this is self-contradictory hogwash (and before you say the F-35 and F-22 are for different missions- look at the customer-it is an F-16 replacement for most export nations- a true multi-role need) !! And you’d be right.

Eurofighter must learn from its US rivals- it must fight dirty and stop apologising.
The Typhoon is the most practical fighter for any nation that can’t make to do with a Gripen. F-35 will be late, will cost a fortune, and will be a nightmare to maintain (if you want it to be stealthy). Typhoon must start aggressive marketing.

Will this happen?
God only knows, with all the split interest involved in multi-national programmes and the anti-PR cultures inherent in Germanic counties the poor, fantastically capable Typhoon may be doomed.

[jwcook]

I can't really work out or decide what has motivated the determined effort to run down Typhoon now - Rafale is on a roll anyway, with Brazil looking like a sure thing, and the UAE looking like a good prospect.

I think that motivation has come from Typhoon which has been perceived recently to be doing rather well. (too well if you ask the the USAF .)

The general chatter among the air forces is that the Typhoon is very capable and very very dangerous, its now seen by Dassault as the one to beat, with the JSF looking more fragile by the day, the Gripen and F18E/F are the only other western fighters in the running, so what is the prime target - The Typhoon.

By bagging a couple of shots at a Typhoon and leaking it you have increased your own products perceived capability, However i think this says more about the Typhoons capability than the Rafales.

Cheers

[ohm1860]

I can't really work out or decide what has motivated the determined effort to run down Typhoon now - Rafale is on a roll anyway, with Brazil looking like a sure thing, and the UAE looking like a good prospect..


Brazil is not a sure thing yet .The price of Rafale emerges as the major stumbling block and its is risky even for the French loving Brazilian preisdent LULA to spend so much of taxpayers money for 36 Rafales considering the fact that nearly 72 Gripens could be procured to the same price ! and regarding the UAE ,there are too many imponderables to make an accurate forecast because;
1- The UAE doesn't need a new fighter any soon as the brand new Block 60's with AESA will do any job they might require..There is virtually no need for RAFALE in foreseeable future ..
2-Any future RAFALE deal is contingent upon France taking back these 60 or so Mirage 2000 fighters. Which country could buy second hand Mirage planes whose production line is closed two years ago.?? Problems with spare parts,upgrades and support.. Dassault has not a good reputation regarding these issues.
Rafale is not on a roll in my opinion..

[Cola]

Eurofighter must learn from its US rivals- it must fight dirty and stop apologising.

Not really.
This is precisely a critical asset in sober judgment and the ability to improve itself. What others are doing will produce short term benefit which will eventually make their customers loose their heads (in actual war, literary) and such manufacturers will loose their credibility and eventually sales. LM is the worst by far and if the promised profit doesn't play out as advertised, we'll see how much countries will buy F35, based in its actual performance.
And btw, what's all the fuss about?
French must sell, Rafale. UAE and Brazil are hanging in the air, so is there a better way to push the PR other than proclaiming Rafale "Le roi du ciele"?
Neither AdlA or Dassault endorsed this score and so Gvt./manufacturer can't be held accountable for it if it proves incorrect and consequently, no one will bother to deny that.
101 PR...

[TMor]

Neither AdlA or Dassault endorsed this score

The pilot (LT Colonel Grandclaudon) said all during an AdA press conference.

[Jon Lake]

TMor,
I agree, Tom (it is Tom, yes?), they have been made by a serving AdlA officer at an open, official event, so like you, I view these as AdlA claims.

Ohm,
I believe that Brazil is a 'sure thing' for Rafale. It may be that there are reasons why some might think that it should not be, but politically, I believe it's unstoppable, and at the end of the day it's a political decision. And I have no problem with that, and I wish Dassault well with it.

I believe that France will do what's necessary to win UAE (fund the engines, buy back the Mirage 2000s). I'm not sure that it's the right aircraft for the UAE, but again, good luck to Dassault.

I wouldn't really agree with you as to Dassault's reputation on support. Sure, there have been problems, but put alongside BAE's reputation on spares and support, they do not come off too badly.

Nor do I concur with the idea that Typhoon is 'doing well' at the moment.

I still believe that when both aircraft fully meet their 'brochure promises', Typhoon will be a significantly superior A-A aeroplane, but with all of the problems, immaturity, and delays and development challenges (all of which we should have been entitled to expect to have been solved by now), I do think that Rafale enjoys an edge in near term 'customer appeal'. It's a narrow edge, as Rafale has its own challenges, but I do perceive that Rafale has some momentum.

And I have to say that in the interests of the wider European industry I hope that Dassault do get one or both of these campaigns.

JLZ,
I think that DASS is one of the few areas where we don't need to learn anything from F-35. By its nature, EW is always a very sensitive area, but if you look hard at Praetorian, it has little to apologise for. Look at the unmasked ESM/ECM coverage (compared to a fin-mounted solution) and look at the sheer number of ports and antennas, and at the capabilities of the phased array ECM antennas. But no-one talks about it, so it's assumed to be old fashioned and 'behind the curve'.

GEC have always been good at ECM - look back at Zeus and all the rest.

[Cola]

The pilot (LT Colonel Grandclaudon) said all during an AdA press conference.

I don't know whether is Lt.Col. Grandclaudon, AdlA's "Col.Fornof" or not and I'm going to avoid assessing his credibility on a categorical level. So, as soon as AdlA and/or Dassault endorse the exercise outcome on their official sites, I'll go along.
As it is now I can't accept this as a matter of principle...I hope you understand.

[Jon Lake]

I don't understand your position, Cola, I must say.

An AdlA colonel said it.

RAF Wing Commanders have occasionally said similarly silly things.

He may prove to be entirely correct and we'll find out the reasons for Typhoon's performance, or, as my industry chum suggests, he's telling such a partial tale that the implied conclusion is a bunch of @r$€.

Either way, the world will keep turning, and no-one with sense should overturn their opinions of either aircraft overnight, but we should all perhaps bear the story in mind as we evaluate further evidence.

[swerve]

...1- The UAE doesn't need a new fighter any soon as the brand new Block 60's with AESA will do any job they might require..

Nope. There is at least one job the UAE wants done, & paid handsomely to be able to do, which the USA will not allow it to use the F-16E for. That is, carrying long range air-ground missiles. The USA refused to sell them to the UAE, & refused to allow non-US missiles to be integrated onto the F-16E. The UAE invested in Black Shahine (a Scalp variant), carried on its Mirage 2000-9s. AFAIK this capability is still deemed essential, & if the Mirages are retired a replacement would be required. The missile would carry straight across to Rafale - but as I said, can not be used by the F-16E.

[Cola]

I don't understand your position, Cola, I must say.
An AdlA colonel said it.
RAF Wing Commanders have occasionally said similarly silly things.

You ask a question in a first line and answer it in the following line.

He may prove to be entirely correct and we'll find out the reasons for Typhoon's performance, or, as my industry chum suggests, he's telling such a partial tale that the implied conclusion is a bunch of @r$€.

Yes, he may be entirely correct and if this score is a result of head to head, equal handicap engagement, then the Eurofighter GmbH can literary close the shop and I mean close the shop.
If not, then the French Lt.Col is a PR agent indeed. Now, I could go far to get to the bottom of this, but I don't think it's necessary, because I think you have pretty good idea of what might have happened there yourself, hence my comment.
Dassault posted the Peter Collins' article on its site in an advertisement capacity and so I'm expecting the same about this, since this is much better advertisement.

Either way, the world will keep turning, and no-one with sense should overturn their opinions of either aircraft overnight, but we should all perhaps bear the story in mind as we evaluate further evidence.

My point exactly and I don't see what's the fuss?
I certainly didn't want to spoil French "victory circuit", hence posting here.